Therone Shellman

Interview by Taylor Nix
February 2009

As black people, we don't own much in this day and age. However, it seems as though whenever we reach a particular level of success we are always eager to put a for a sale sign on our efforts, especially when mainstream America comes calling. What is your opinion on that? Should we sell? Or continue down the road of independence?
I personally do not think there is a problem with selling. Whites build companies all the time to sell and make a profit. This is the spirit of an entrepreneur. The real issue is whether blacks in general tend to sell themselves short. And this is the case for a lot of us in the music and literary business. Just because you sell and make a deal doesn’t mean it’s a good deal. A deal should either take your career to the next level, enable you to obtain capital which will put you in a position to do a lot more for yourself personally and with your career. Or in the case of someone who has built a business and is going for a sell out, it should be a deal of all deals, one in which you are getting your monies worth for your time and your contributions plus some. Not soon after I released “Love Don’t Live Here” I created my buzz on the street market, pushed some numbers and then put it on the market for sale. I was approached two times with deals. One was a manuscript sale where the literary agent had a cash deal. Another was by a mid sized publisher who got wind of the numbers I was doing in the streets, and wanted me to help them with a few titles and in return they would provide and expansion loan to Third Eye Publishing. In retrospect I should of sold “Love Don’t Live Here” because, I could of negotiated an imprint deal. Deals are not endings, they are the next step.

With the way things are progressing in "street/urban" literature, do you think there should be some form of industry standard in regards to editing and overall manufacturing, that publishers and authors meet before publishing books?
I’ve been down this road myself, and am committed personally as a writer, and publisher to put out titles which look no different from editorial and packaging then what mainstream publishers are putting out. Overall, I do feel there is an unwritten rule as to what a book should look like from front to back. With the release of “Even Numbers” by Barbara Grovner 12/07 I really started to pay attention to the overall manufacturing of a book-inside and out. People compliment me on the look and feel of our 2008 releases.

What advice would you give a new author?
First, get yourself a copy of’ The Secrets Of Self Publishing” A Booklet To Guide You by who other than myself. It seems like a plug-in for me, but it’s not because I know all the info in the book so I did not have to write it. I wrote it to help people like yourself. Recognize the business aspect of this out the gate. Secondly, create a three year plan out the gate. Furthermore, read this whole interview because I touch upon some important issues.

Is there a difference between street and urban literature? It seems everyone is quick to call their book "urban" but many do not know what it really means. Why is the word "urban" always tied to  Blacks/African Americans?
Street literature is what it’s coined, street. When you think of the streets, reality, gritty and raw come to mind. I’ve heard Donald Goines name used many times in reference to street literature. If he is a yard stick to measure the genre by then there is definitely a difference between street and urban lit. It’s obvious many do not even know what the word urban means. It means city, or having the characteristics of a city. Just because the characters are black does not make a story urban. Just because drama and crime is going on doesn’t necessarily make it urban. Mafia books have a whole lot of crime, but it’s not urban lit. In Amerikkka’s terms when you think of city, the thought of ghettoes and hoods come to mind because that’s where all of black America who lived in the northeast dwelled 3-4 decades ago. And believe it or not they would like to put the ones who escaped out back in there. Unfortunately many black folks minds are still there. They cannot see past poverty or how so and so is doing this and that to keep them down. Urban is tied to blacks, because it’s not pretty. Blacks identify with the term because psychologically they still believe they don’t deserve better than the worst of what America has to offer. The Mis-Education of The Negro by Dr. Carter G. Woodson for anyone who has read it gives a clear look at what we are talking about here.

How can we get this genre respected and put back on the right track?
For starters there are a lot of good writers. But the image that a lot of writers bring is what does no justice for the genre. You have the gangster, glamour and glitter, which tarnish our image as black professionals’ period in the lit business and as people who are progressive. Coming from the streets is no badge of honor. And let me tell you it’s safe to say 90% of cats who sold drugs, did a bid or know a little about sticking up are not gangsters. I’ve seen dudes turn homo, turn to the church, mosque, join gangs, posse up and for the most part in some way break down in prison and the streets. If the image of the genre is to change then it’s going to take the people who write to change. If you’re enslaved mentally, then that’s all you can spin from your mind. You have not matured to the point where you look at problems and seek solutions. Most of these books provide no solutions to the problems they present.

Book covers, I'll be very honest, I've seen some of the worst designed and produced covers in all my days since street lit hit the scene. However, I want to take you back a few years, when Sistah Souljah released Coldest Winter Ever. I didn't see such sexual images and flesh on that particular cover nor was any of it on True To The Game or B-More Careful or even the first set of Donald Goines and IceBerg Slim books. When and why do you think this happened?
Well, back then for the most part there wasn’t much erotica, especially when it came to African American lit. Secondly, the books and authors you mentioned blew up for the most part because of male readers in prison. As men our visuals are different than women, and once women started taking notice of these books, book clubs started forming online and off. Authors, publishers started taking heed to what women readers were saying and how they were responding to covers. So the sexually explicit covers were a result of women readers. Not all women but women for the most part who want to be entertained, with fantasy like stories, as well as cover imagery. They’re not even thinking about their culture, or how their identity as black women is being exploited.

Let's set the record straight right now: Is this literature, as literature is defined?
I think the question really is, is this form of literature in line with the history of African American literature? Well, it doesn’t take much for one to see that literature in every way has played an important part in the progress of our people here since the early 1900’s, probably before then. It started with black newspapers, dictating and defining our needs nationally. This is how we were kept in tune and in contact with one another in regards to important issues. Then came the books, which again provided needed information. Even when it came to African American fiction the stories did more than entertain. Now across the board in many ways African American fiction has changed. Yes, more young black people are reading. We all need to eat, but is eating a good thing if we are not eating the right foods? Take a look at obese people and what they eat. Then take a look at people who are in shape and see what they eat. So is reading alone justifiably a good thing? Literature is supposed to expand your mind beyond your every day circumstances and make you more worldy and well rounded. “You are what you think”. Well, what you think has everything to do with the knowledge and information you absorb. Is this literature as literature is defined all depends on whether you are looking at it through the eyes of a black person who realizes that knowledge is the first step to freedom and empowerment. Or are you a black person looking at it threw the eyes of someone who is mentally enslaved and sees books as a mere form of entertainment, even though brothers are getting gunned down by police every month, young black men are joining gangs and killing one another at an alarming rate. I could go on on, but in the face of all this lit is just a vehicle to entertain.

They say street lit (just as Hip Hop) destroys communities and creates violence. Do you agree? Can you elaborate on this a bit?
I don’t know if you mean urban lit or street lit. Street lit makes up a very small percentage of what’s being written. If Donald Goines is a yard stick to measure street lit, then I will say street lit not necessarily urban lit is a good tool to utilize on street culture and urban studies. And at many schools they do use his works for such. Remember there are no happy endings to his stories which make them a lot different than what we have right now. Urban lit, however is very different because like you said before everyone is throwing their books in the pile of this genre. So you have the hood rat stories, gold digger stories, the millionaire hustler stories, stick up kid stories, on and on. It’s no different with music. If your work encourages people to do good or spotlights solutions to problems, they will be in influenced by it. If it encourages people outright or subliminally to do other than that, they will act upon that because people are influenced by words and energy. If this was not the case they would not listen to music. They would not read books. It does something for them internally because words are spiritual in nature and causes people to think and therefore react.

What adversities have you faced as an author and publisher?
As an author I finally came to the point of defining who my readership and target market is early 2008, two and a half years after the release of “Love Don’t Live Here”. Even though I’ve sold 16,000 copies of the title with more than half of this number in the street market it was hard to tell because, I have good energy, I know how to speak and I deal with people in the hood as well as well to do people who shop in suburban malls and buy from the chain book stores. For the most part as an author I’ve sort of been caught up between readers who represent two different mind sets and variations between the age groups. As a publisher I built this company from the ground up with no loans, no partnership funds and no partners, so I basically multi-tasked up to this point of 11 titles. This year I will be doing a lot of structuring, and bringing on people to take my vision further. Being too involved with day to day tasks has been my main adversity as a publisher, but at the point right now where things will change.


How has your relationship been with the African American book market and the Mainstream book market?
For starters my first title “Love Don’t Live Here” is not the typical book a black male would write, especially here in NY. The story is a little bit of urban, Christian and contemporary all in one so I knew I would not fair too well with black distributors. So I took it to the streets, and then decided to get distribution into the mainstream store market because in these stores I would find middle class blacks and those who are a little better read. Out the gate the mainstream store market accepted me. With my grind in the streets I made a lot of contacts, financed a few vendors, a year ago started selling other publishers titles. I would have other people buy the books so I wouldn’t have to deal with some folks. Then I started buying directly myself from a few publishers. Triple Crown, and Augustus Publishing to name a few who gave me good deals. But then about 3 months ago I stopped selling other publishers titles because aside from the publishers I was personally dealing with I cannot see myself supporting an industry (urban book market) who I feel are full grown people who have the minds of little children; the jealousy, backbiting and b/s that one day someone is going to make the wrong mistake and I’m going to catch another case sooner or later. I’ve kept my distance and been doing me since I came in this business, so that’s what I decided to keep on doing in regards to the black book market.

Being one of the most outspoken voices in the independent book market has this in some ways affected your progress?
Of course anytime you speak and express your opinion when its not inline with the views of the majority you will witness some backlash in some form. My issues with certain black book stores have been the result of individuals or cowards as I would like to call them being disgruntled about my views and the fact that I’m not a puppet and they cannot control me or dictate to me how I am to think or conduct my business. So they have tried to create barriers. “Don’t carry this author or publishers books”. They have their little hate groups going on, but they are all bunch of spineless cowards who hide behind screen names, and would never want any issues in real life. But that’s fine with me because it means they do know there is a difference between me and them. I can’t blame anyone for using their head, and in this case it’s good for me and them. From day one when I came in this industry I stated my views, three years later I have not changed. I spoke about the stories back then, I spoke about the sexist covers back then, I spoke about the business side of things back then. The book cover, and story issues are two of the most talked about in the black book world today, three years later. Affected my progress they have not. They could have had I been weaker than them, but I’m not. They snoop around my online social network pages, join to see what I’m doing, or tap into my friends lists. They send their phony as friends at me to try to befriend me. And some of them are in my face in real life, but I always look people in the face when I speak, anyone will tell you this about me. You can see a persons soul through their eyes so there is no deceiving. Man, I used to hustle, and stick up dealers so what they call being grimy and shiesty to me is child play. I stand from a distance, watch them and get a laugh and appreciate my supporters and the few true friends I have. Three years, 11 titles.

How did you manage to get your companies titles into the mainstream market and why are some black authors/publishers having a hard time? Do you think it will get harder?
I first started dealing with Baker & Taylor books early 2006 so I could do signings in the mainstream book market and market to the libraries. From there I signed a distribution deal with Biblio Distributors who at the time were the premiere distributor for independent black publishers. Out the gate I dealt with the street market, and from the start Third Eye Publishing was formed as an S-Corp, and I had a professionally built website as well as a promotional package. So yeah it’s about the hustle, but it’s also about professionalism. A lot of these folks can’t get the street mentality out their minds. You have to have your paperwork and pitch together when you approach these folks; it’s a lot different then dealing with the black distributors who you just come to with books and an invoice. Will it get harder? Of course it will. A lot of stores have started facing some books face out which means there is less book space on shelves. Sexist and hoodified covers are being seen less and less in the mainstream stores by independents. A lot of what’s going on is for the sole reason that now the independent black market as a whole is at the point where its competing with the mainstream market in regards to black book sales.
Are book sales down around the board or within certain genres?
According to store statistics book sales have not been down drastically. This is especially so when it comes to fiction. Since late 2005 I have been involved with the street market, having sold a lot of my books, financed a few vendors, and even selling other authors and publisher titles myself. In the streets it’s been up and down, depending on the weather, time of month, holidays etc. But people are reading, and they have not lost interest in reading. What I’ve seen though as far as black fiction is concerned is authors and publishers who are following trends of brands which have etched out a name for themselves witness a decline in sales or find it hard to break into the market if they are starting out. In the streets it’s a lot easier to eye and pinpoint than in the store market because a table may have anywhere from 40-150 titles so you know what books are sitting around, and by what companies. I have heard vendors, authors and some publishers talk about a slump in sales. In regards to my own titles I haven’t seen it in regards to customers buying habits. I’ve taken a big hit in sales because last year we had 7 title releases, 3 of which came out the last quarter, so my focus was elsewhere instead of the usual grind. But from the second quarter on in 2009 for our catalog I foresee it to be a 2006 year all over again for my company, recession, and depression, whatever. “Survivor” I Changed the Rules my biography, expect it the third or fourth quarter of 2009.

Comments page 3 of 6:
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Even realer :
Posted 3534 days ago
Therone, I'd like to see "Thank You" come back after that one! Wow! Damn, brotha, you make a lot of people mad in this industry. You get under a lot of peeps skin for some reason. Wonder why? (shaking head)
Therone Shellman :
Posted 3535 days ago
@Thank You, I assume your an author, publisher or publicist
Why don't you email me with your government name and save the ignorance and slick talk behind a screen name. I'll post wherever I want to b/c I'm not a coward. I'm loving your energy right now! I'll make sure to keep posting b/c obviously you read them and they do something for you emotionally. I'm going to give you some advice. If you really don't like me email with your name, trust I will hollar back and we can take it from there. There's no need for you to comment here.
Cel :
Posted 3535 days ago
@ Thank You: See that was wrong.
Thank you :
Posted 3535 days ago
I'm just glad the UBS interviewed him and gave him a chance to have his own because I was sick and tired of him posting on everyone's interviews to the point of nauseousness!
Therone Shellman :
Posted 3536 days ago
@Melinda, I gave you a more drawn out email response than I will do here. I thank you for stopping by. I'm just going to say like I told you via email I don't define myself by what is going on in the black book industry or the whole industry-period. Out the gate my focus has not just been the book store alone, nor has it been when it comes to stories. I do a lot of events in libraries, social organizations and anywhere I can basically get in. I set up at the sneaker spot, chicken spot, fish joint-wherever (which is where you met me :). As far as books are concerned I spoke to you for about a half hour in reference to this. I deal with the educational market--so it makes all the sense in the world that my publishing program caters to this market.
Melinda B. :
Posted 3537 days ago
Mr. Shellman, I met you in Amityville on Saturday with my sister and you gave us your card with this link on it. I told you in the email I would leave a comment on here. Like my said my sister had told me about you many times. All I can say is keep up the good work!
After going through your different sites all I can say is that I'm impressed and a bit shocked because you be in the hood just acting normal.
When my sister pulled up she was like "thats the book guy."
I was like who, "Because you were just in the spot all laid back."
This interview though is very straight forward and very blunt, but you did it with style so I give you props on that. I do have a question though because I love black books, I just never got into the hood books or sex thing because I like the older black writers. I want to know where do you fit in as far as the black book industry is concerned? I was telling my sister that we need to keep up with you because your a brother from the hood who is trying to do something positive and we don't see that often. I asked you a few more questions via email. I hope you have the time to respond back.
Therone Shellman :
Posted 3539 days ago
Cythia, ok well happy reading
Cythia :
Posted 3539 days ago
Therone, I'm not actually in the industry. I have friends who are editors and authors. I read and do some reviewing. They always talk about the ups and downs of the industry, I was just adding my opinions.
Therone Shellman :
Posted 3540 days ago
@Cythia, by the way what do you do in the industry?
Therone Shellman :
Posted 3540 days ago
@Cythia, it's impossible to control b/c the black book market is in a small corner of the book market itself.(if you don't believe me attend a mainstream book event and see how they shove the black book market in the corner somewhere). Most of the successful AA fiction publishers have become successful through the mainstream market and distribution through it not the AA distributors (with no influence in this area you have very little leverage). AA don't even control the street market, the Africans do. And trust they have their meetings in regards to how they are going to continue to control it and keep it out of the hands of AA. Lol! what's even funnier is these AA authors and publishers who live in the boroughs of NYC and let them pimp their books and determine if they are going to carry them or not. It's one of the many reasons why I decided to start pushing my own titles in the streets, and I'll be damned if I was not going to get my share. When blacks become bigger players in how our books get made, and distributed then we can regulate our market. Until then-it's the wild wild west. As far as getting in,books drop every other day, and most of them disappear after 3-6 months b/c of the book or b/c the people behind the book don't have the business sense to navigate. And because the books are coming and dropping off so quickly it's not adding up to much financially in reagrds to what the black book market contributes to the book market as a whole. Most of the books don't make into the mainstream market. A lot of them are not put out legit by on the book companies. It's safe to say 25% of the books which come out fall into the categories I mentioned. The black fictionbook market as far as the urban genre is concerned is like a gun with no bullets. Books will continue to flood the market just like songs by independent rap artists. These books have become the next hype for folks who think they can get rich quickly..Lol! do they learn the hard way. Most of them don't even want to read books on the indsutry. If they did I'm alomost 80% certain we would have less books being published independently in the AA market than we do b/c most don't have the grind, dedication, perseverance or willingness to learn and want to keep learning. This is a get rich, do things under the table thing for them. One dude wrote me a letter saying that he knows its not as easy as I laid it out in my booklet. Lol! I told him I can tell you how to play football, but its up to you to go out there and play football. And it's a whole lot different experiencing it in the physical. You'll see it's not that easy...Lmao--people are so funny. @ Cythia,, if for nothing else but to get people to think a bit more I also feel an organized industry debate would do some good.
Tara Black :
Posted 3540 days ago
Rhonda, tell girl!!!!
Cythia :
Posted 3540 days ago
Great discussion people. UBS should host a industry wide debate on all these topics. The questions of standards? I think it SHOULD be some form of standards that everyone follows or you don't get in. But then, we'd have to get ready for those who say its now "controlled."
Good stuff here.



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